Peace Protestor Tagged
A UK peace protestor has been electronically tied. See the BBC's website for more information.
Anyway - I've been learning all kinds of interesting bits and pieces about Quakerism in the UK. I'd love to hear what some of my American Friends make of them.
So here goes:
*40% of people who are members of British Yearly meeting do not consider themselves Christian (I'm surprised that the numbers are that high, but then again, thinking about it, I know a lot more Quakers in the UK who don't consider themselves Christian than those who do...so maybe that's not all that surprising).
*Some attenders in the UK don't become members as they feel unable to affirm the peace testimony (particularly in relation to WWII).
I've been mulling over the peace testimony and some quotations from other Friends and wondering what it means for me and for other modern day Friends. Anyone care to say anything?
"...I lived in the virtue of that life and power that took away the occasion of all wars." George Fox
"We utterly deny all outward wars and strife and fightings with outward weapons, for any end or under any pretence whatsoever. And this is our testimony to the whole world. The spirit of Christ, by which we are guided, is not changeable, so as once to command us from a thing as evil and again to move unto it; and we do certainly know, and so testify to the world, that the spirit of Christ, which leads us into all Truth, will never move us to fight and war against any man with outward weapons, neither for the kingdom of Christ, nor for the kingdoms of this world." (Declaration to Charles II - although I'm told that this was written to reassure Charles II and others that Quakers would not bear arms against them or anyone else, and so perhaps that context is important to bear in mind.)
Other expressions of the Quaker peace testimony can be found here.
Thoughts please?
posted by Ruthie @ 2:50 PM
21 comments
21 Comments:
World War II... That is always the sticking point... and yet the time to have stopped that war was before it started. It was not fought to end Nazism's abuse of minorities... not a single camp was liberated but for the fact it was over run, and, no rail lines were bombed to stop deportations... Then, when Russia was going to take Japan from the north, we committed mass murder with atom bombs... and then the world went back to mass murder, differently, but the world looks away... while we began to work closely with the same Nazi's... some peace...
The way to end war is to fill the void of evil with love.
On Christ... I'll come back to this, and peace, I have to run with my video camera because and event is about to take place at a friend's arts center, and there may be trouble, pray for peace... between twos and millions... lots more to say about all of this... sorry, bit of an emergency... lor
Thanks for the comments Lor - I hope the event at your friend's art centre (ok ok, centER) runs smoothly.
Ruthie
On war and Christ continued...
I suppose a few words on Christ. I consider myself a Christocentric Friend, though, I do not thing Jesus and Christ were one and the same... but God teaching through the flesh of others is Christ... and God taught through Jesus. I am not sure, from the earliest books, such as Thomas, that Jesus though of himself as THE Christ, more likely a Christ and that there is that of God (Christ) in all of us, which is why in Thomas he keeps reminding us to look inside.
There is a bit on my web page of the problems of trying to divine the miracle of God teaching through another, it has led me, for example to great heart break and misunderstanding. But, the fact is we are all week flesh and have to keep seeking and not expecting to find, though living in hope. Frankly, I worry that folk who invoke Jesus as a mantra to finding God, may be using the image of Jesus as a token for understanding, and achieve the belief that they are walking in light, while really engaged in a feel good paganism. I am not passing judgement in this, but I have seen dear people gain false comfort that has not sustained them when needed the most. I know I have been saved, so I don't say this in hubris, pretending to know God as I should, though I am fairly sure that the worship of a remarkable rabbi and Christ, is not the ticket to all understanding... being open and present to the light in all things and all others is... and I am not there yet.
Well enough for now, more as I have time to think a little.
Yours in hope of the light
lor
Ah yes, the Art Centre er er... well the wee harbor, or harbour of the arts is being flooded by broken pipes and angry neighbors above, and a small war was about to break out, and yet may... but, we are working on keeping the peace ... oh to have some peace somewhere dear friend, somewhere.
PS .... I do not think... not I do not thing... sorry for the error above, my proof reading skills are a wee bit banjaxed this life... maybe better luck next life...
There is my proofreading again... I meant to write I know I have NOT been saved! NOT!!! where is my head today...
lor
I don't recall where exactly I read that early Quakers called for a return to "primitive Christianity," though I see even a quick Google search (with the word "Quaker") brings up the phrase in relation to some writings of William Penn.
I bring this up because I wonder how many of those non-Christian-identified British Friends might consider themselves "primitive Christians" as opposed to modern Christians... It is a question I am beginning to grapple with, given my Jewish upbringing and my evolving thinking about what is meant by "the Christ."
Also, while I hadn't been "mulling over the peace testimony" like you, I have occasionally spent time considering Fox's quote about living "in the virture of that life and power that took away the occasion of all wars." I've thought of how that quote is often truncated to the politically-active equivalent of "let's work to take away the occasion of war."
The latter statement says nothing about how we live our lives.
So, Ruthie-Annie: now you've got me curious about and more engaged with Fox's oft-[mis]quoted statement. For example, this is the first I've noticed that Fox uses the past tense, "I told [the Commonwealth Commissioners] I lived in the virtue...that took away the occasion of all wars."
I can accept the past tense of "lived," since it follows an implied "that"--"I told them that I lived thusly..."
But the verb "took" as opposed to "takes." That verb now sits with me differently. The deed is already done, by the Grace of the God. God has already taken away the occasion of all wars. The rest is left to us, to live into the City of God.
And then there is the word "virtue," which I have always thought to be a strange word in this phrase. Its definition ranges from "righteousness; goodness," to "[manly] strength or courage".
Very interesting... As for the consideration of attenders who "feel unable to affirm the peace testimony," I have to wonder if more and more Friends are making the peace testimony a Quaker idol, rather than valuing it as a symbol of the Spirit having acted through one or more individuals who seek [sought] to put their lives in right order. Or do Quaker meetings put this and the other testimonies on a pedestal too high and out of reach?
Thanks for the opportunity for me to reflect on this a bit more thoroughly than I have in the past!
Blessings,
Liz, The Good Raised Up
Peace and Christ Jesus...
So, all the above is not to say that at least this Hicksite Quaker does not pay great attention to Jesus as a Christ. When he said do unto others as you would have them do unto you, he was opening us to being present to God in each other, and without that the Peace Testimony is an impossibility.
How can you have a world without war? Well, as your post about forgiveness in the northern parts of Ireland shows... there has to be understanding. The whole process of truth and reconciliation in South Africa was vital to ending the war after the war.
Forgiveness can't be complete if the underlying conflict persists... if that is the case there is not unity, but only compromise, one says "I am sorry" the other says "fine, I accept" and then both proceed to weigh every action and event against the assumptions that caused the original problem, and the deep deep pain festers and grows.
Forgiving in Christian sense is so much deeper. I have seen so little in our meeting... often controversy has just led to fear of each other, pain and mistrust. So, are Quakers Christian? Without forgiveness and clearness in controversy, no matter how they speak of Christ as a personal savior... likely not.
If we are to be a part of the peace of the world, to live out our promise to be a utopian faith defined by love for each other... well, it has to start with love. Love does not judge against thing which is left in controversy and pain.
But, fear is a great divider, after the event which leveled the World Trade Center, a Friend remarked in meeting that he was no longer convinced of the Peace Testimony, as the world had changed forever. I knew that the world had only come to New York. We had to be the Quakers in fear ourselves, that we expected the rest of the world to be... fear blinds us to all love. Fear is the enemy of God within each other. When Roosevelt said the only thing to fear is fear itself, that was deeper than he likely knew... for it is not a call to the false courage of war, but a call to Christ's love and forgiveness instead.
Thanks Liz and Lorcan. Quaker bloggers, especially those on the other side of the Atlantic (are there any other British Quaker bloggers anywhere?), have been very helpful and supportive as I fumble my way through what Quakerism means.
Liz - I can't speak for all British non-Christian Friends, but I get the impression that many do not see themselves as primitive Christians. Indeed, some point out that the early Quakers had no choice but to use Christian language as that was the only religious language available to them. If Quakerism started today in a multi-faith and multi-cultural society, they suspect that it would not regard itself as Christian. Some don't regard Jesus as being more special than any other religious leader - and I have heard some say that Jesus does not speak to their condition.
However, I think both you and Lorcan raise the important point that Christ does not equal Jesus. Oh what a muddle, or is it just a mystery?
Anyway, we were talking about the peace testimony on Sunday at the meeting I go to here, and someone did comment that the peace testimony does seem to be treated differently than the others. We set testimonies up as the ideal to strive for, recognising that we may fail to attain those goals, or that there are situations in which a rigid adherence to a particular testimony is not the best way. However, the peace testimony is oftentimes seen as an absolute. Do you think this is a fair comment?
Thanks for taking the time to comment!
Ruthie
Absolute... Hmmm... the way I see it, if you see God in others, to the point that they are the expression of God's consciousness on earth, one cannot kill. I am often reminded of the two stories of Thomas Lurting, and John Woolman, both who when on occasion where in a moment of mortal danger, the sword or the Tomahawk being leveled at them, opened their arms to that of God in their attacker. What a lesson that is... both put fear aside, anger aside, and let love speak to the other, and the other saw God in them ... It is the same story as the Peace Feather, in Easton New York during the American War for Independence, when Quakers welcomed the Abanaki people who where there to kill them, and made peace without a word. There was more than interpretation and assumption there to fear, there was the knowledge that in a moment all faced death, and they responded with love, and openness, and honest courage. And God filled the void of evil.
However, I think all testimonies, Quakerism itself is process, and that there is a difference between saying I have faith that it is so, and I am not there yet, and saying I do not hold to the peace testimony yet I am a Quaker...
Thanks for adding more thoughts, Ruthie-Annie, about British Friends and their relation to Christianity—or lack thereof.
And now you've added a piece about the peace testimony:
We set testimonies up as the ideal to strive for, recognising that we may fail to attain those goals, or that there are situations in which a rigid adherence to a particular testimony is not the best way. However, the peace testimony is oftentimes seen as an absolute. Do you think this is a fair comment?
I don't believe early Friends "set testimonies up as an ideal." Likewise, I don't think Friends have ever been corporately led, now or in the past, to declare the peace testimony as an absolute. Can your Friend find a minute recording such a thing? And isn't an absolute akin to a creed?
Oooh, your question is pushing a button for me. Off I go to write a draft for a post about me and the testimonies!
Blessings,
Liz, The Good Raised Up
Here is a wee song I wrote about the peace testimony... and a true story...
Thomas Lurting
Oh my name is Thomas Lurting, and a press gang has taken me
on board of a well found vessel, to fight the Irish on the sea
It being in the time of the long Parliament, I, but a lad of fourteen years
and amid the smoke and the thunder, I became a man immune to fears
I became a Bos'uns Mate and, two hundred sailors were at my command
'til we pressed some Quaker fellows while fighting in a distant land
They would not conform to worship, when called upon to sing and pray
and I was told to beat them, but a voice within me my hand did stay
And so it was I became convinced, and even my captain's sword I faced
But I was so changed completely, I was discharged with some small haste
for fear our gentle leadings, would spread like vines amongst our crew
and I was placed ashore then, to find my life had begun anew
I joined a Quaker vessel, and was bound out from Venice Town
while off Spanish May York, by Turk corsairs our Katch was found
we offered them no battle, but welcomed them as a Friend to me
and they ordered us to sail for, Algeria and our slavery
At length they grew to trust us, one night they all asleeping lay
And I crept amongst them all, for to take their knives and swords away
we locked them in the cabin and, set sail upon our former course
but soon there came a great wailing, and their captain comenced this grim discourse
Should you take us to your home, Englishmen, there hanged we all will surely be
of this we are well frightened and beg of you some small pity
we spoke our crew together, and then in spite of all our fear
we would return our captives, to their own shore which they called Algere
We soon lay off their homeland our eyes searched for their men of war
Myself and two others chose to row the Turks to their bleak shore
We reached those stranger's sandy beach, and feared we all seize-ed would be
for there were ten Turkish pirate men, and far from our ship we were but three
But we set them on their native land, and they embraced us with tears of joy
and waving as we rowed away, such was the love we did enjoy
we set our sails for England but our story had before us flew
and Charles our King, and the Duke of York, awaited us, I tell thee true
King Charles viewed us darkly, "Why did you not bring these foes to me?"
Said I, "I thought, it better they dwell in their own country."
The king gazed at we Quakers as grim and stern as he could be,
then laughing he embrace-ed us, and here I will end my tale for thee
So rest in that which can do good, when evil shall show a face to thee
let this be the way of all true Friends, when thee confronts adversity
fear not upon the wildest shore, but lovingly look in the stranger’s eye
and remember thy Friend Thomas Lurting, for now in my final peace I lie.
Hi Ruthie-Annie and everyone,
Here's another British Quaker blogger, anyway, my site's http://www.am464.net/
Quite a lot of the Friends I know here in Britain Yearly Meeting use the language of Primtive Christianity. There is frequent wrestling with the language and place of Christ in the conversations I have with other Friends. I've been influenced by the New Foundation kind of view of Quaker worship as primitive christianity revived. I also love Wilmer A Cooper's book A Living Faith for foundations of Quaker believing, although I'm not totally comfortable in the theology of the American Wilburite Friends.
Also I come across Friends who don't join because they are not definitely Christian and haven't found for themselves the place of Christ and so feel prevented from declaring themselves with Quakers by formal membership, because they have a sense of the Christian root of what our Religious Society is. And others who won't apply for formal membership because to be fully Quaker would make them feel they could no longer follow the traditional calendar of Christian festivals, Easter, Pentecost, Christmas and so on.
I guess there's an amount of self-selection - Ruthie-Annie you find that most Quakers you know aren't Christian because that's who you have fellowship with, whereas I find that 9/10 of the Quakers I meet are Christians, because for me loving and following Jesus is essential to worshipping G-d in the Quaker way.
Also more on-topic maybe, at least the curfew on Lindis Percy will be over by Yearly Meeting for her to lead our day out to hold Meeting for Worship at Menwith Hill during Residential YM at York in the eighth month this year. :) Are you going to be at YM?
Blessings,
Alice M.
Hi Alice,
Thanks for your thoughts - its nice to see a fellow Brit in the Quaker cybersphere :).
I don't have any plans to go to yearly meeting. I'm not planning too much in advance these days as my work is quite pressured at the moment, and I need to keep myself flexible for the rest of the year really. Shame :(.
Ruthie
A little more on the Peace Testimony...
I am always uncomfortable to gloss over the issues of WWII when speaking about the Peace Testimony.
In reality, the evil of nazism was absolute in the expression of nazism in the death camps. But, the fact is the war aspect which fed that evil is common to all human conflict wither interpersonal or international... mass delusion (individual self delusion repeated in millions of lives ) and striking out, then resolution talking and peace.
We Quakers through clearness try to reverse the process, begin with talking then peace.
So, let's look at the occasion of war in terms of two people as well as two nations. The leaders of the nation have their goals, their world views and dreams... in the case of Germany it was a belief in some mythical golden age that could be restored to bring about a world without ambiguity. To achieve this there had to be a unifying myth... "look at the Jews, you can tell they are the evil rot in society because..." and things are pointed to out of context to "prove" the myth. The specific was made general, and prejudice resulted.
We are seeing this today in the war against... who knows what?... England and the United States are committing in the Middle East... "look to the event of the World Trade Center ( look to the Ruben James... look to the Gulf of Tonkin, look to the Maine... look to the gift of Tennis Balls given our English King by the French King for his coronation..." and on an on before us and behind us...) , ... taken out of context of history it proves... all we need to fight.
Two people, one points to an event, a perceived trait and says to friends... look at this, this is why I am in conflict with that person, it is obvious that... because of... and the support of others is employed to carry on conflict so that the result of the lack of clearness between two people becomes lack of clearness among others... divides the community and the result is like war, in our meeting we have not been able to choose a clerk for over a year, friends spread rumors to prove... XY&Z... other conflicts take on the same process... we go from being a Utopian community based on love to being a community at war, then Friends get tired of the pain caused, like the unacceptable death and destruction eventually arrived at in war, peace becomes the preferable to continued hurt to each other ... and clearness is attempted.
However, when clearness is attempted after all the pain, it is so much harder to achieve, there is so much more misunderstanding to overcome... so much more obvious to one and not the other on both sides.
So, we Friends encourage each other not to carry tales, to enter into clearness at the start of conflict. But, we are human and that often does not happen. It is the same with war. War seems inevitable because peoples, like people, do not enter the process of making peace before the conflict. Mass anger in injected into the process in the same way individual anger is injected into the process and the result is the same, a clouding of issues, the unbelievable becomes the commonly accepted, the best reputations become sullied and conflicts become set in stone, and Friends leave their meetings.
Talk. That is way the Peace Testimony becomes real... talk to each other dear Friends in conflict, talk in a loving way to the God in each other and if you can't, enlist the aid of Friends to keep that talk centered in God. The same is true with nations... talk, and make peace before the wars, during the wars, because after the war it is too late for so many.
Talk, lovingly and with and to God who dwells in all of us.
I have lots to say about your comments re Christian and nonChristian Quakers - but not enough time right now to say it. In the meantime, I also have an appreciative comment on one small paragraph of the BBC's report on the "electronically tied" peace protestor.
" Mrs Percy's supporters cheered when he refused the Asbo but cried "shame" when he imposed the curfew.
This seems very endearingly British. It reminds me of the news reports one sees from time to time of the British House of Commons which always seems, when I see snippets of the procedings on American television, like a much more participatory and spontaneous place (with shouts and murmurs throughout the speeches and debates) than the stilted, formal, and unctuously polite speeches in the U.S. Congress.
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