If Choy Lee Mu were a Christian
Choy Lee Mu was a notorious poster on 24-7talkback, a place I now consider to be my online home and for quite some time, it was the only place I felt able to be honest about my growing issues with the Christian religion. If anyone is curious, a quick flick through the the old talkback forum is sure to bring up some Choy at his acerbic best.
I started reading talkback when I was volunteering at my university's telephone helpline service. Most of the time I wouldn't post, but lurked around reading Choy's posts. At one point, one of the other volunteers who had an interest in Christianity and I would sign up to do shifts together and read Choy's posts aloud, roaring with laughter in between phone calls!
Choy had a way of livening up the debate. He was (and is) an incredibly witty, dry and sometimes vitriolic atheist. Ultimately, I think I owe a lot to Choy. Choy asked the questions that quietly mumbled around in my head, his astute observations cut through the crap, pushed me to reconsider my faith and take seriously the implications of some of my beliefs.
The end result was a lot of confusion, occasional bursts of anger and a whole new way of responding to church! Every time some poor preacher decided to preach on the cross I would end up muttering Choy's most infamous line...'So, God sacrificed himself, to himself, to allow himself to break the rules that he himself had made.' Alas, Easter sermons would never be the same again! At one point, those delicious words rolled delightfully off my tongue in a conversation with an evangelist who cornered me during an evangelistic mission to my university campus :)
But, in the questionning I learned to be honest, honest to myself, honest to God (who in all honesty may not actually exist, but I might as well be honest about it) and honest to others. And indeed, if the 'truth' hadn't set me free, honesty did the job very nicely. I was free from the restrictions my childhood religion placed on me, free to explore, to learn from others, free to explore other religions, free to pursue peaceful dialogue, free from the fear that most of my friends were going to hell, free to follow my heart and use my common sense.
Later we learned that Choy Lee Mu was not Chinese, but an American dude from Arizona called Brent Rasmussen, whose current online home is devoted to Unscrewing the Inscrutable.
So why this post all about an old internet pal who highly entertained me several years ago? Well today I decided to click on Brent's website whereupon I found a very challenging and inspiring post entitled, 'If I were a Christian',. So followers of the way of Christ, of whatever theological disposition, take heed, the gauntlet is laid down before us. If I were of a more spiritual bent, I might even suggest a prophet is in our midst.
posted by Ruthie @ 2:54 AM
13 comments
13 Comments:
Hi Ruthie!
Actually, the post "If I Were A Christian" was written by my co-blogger DarkSyde.
However, one of the reasons that I lured him into writing with me was the fact that he is an incredibly talented, passionate, and cogent writer who oftentimes writes the things that I wish I had written! :)
I was touched by your post, Ruthie. I am happy that my time at 24-7Talkback was beneficial to you. I miss the old forum sometimes, but it nearly consumed 2 years of my life. Towards the end there, I felt like I was bailing out a sinking boat with a teacup. There were just too many theists, and not enough of the loyal opposition. You and Simon were my biggest allies, and I appreciated that more than you will ever know, but it was just frustrating to have to go over the same material time after time with every shiny, brand-spanking-new strong-in-the-spirit would-be apologist who stumbled into the "Debate and Discuss" forum from the "Poems" forum. Heh.
I've blogrolled you over at UTI. How about submitting something to the Carnival Of The Godless? You don't actually have to be an atheist to participate. This post is a good candidate, actually. Here's the info.
In any case, thanks for stopping by and reading UTI. Long live Choy Lee Mu! Hehehe...
Well hello! Welcome! I realised that the post wasn't by you, but by Dark-Syde after I'd written my post. But I figured it was a pretty decent post so decided to keep it anyway :)
Thanks for the suggestion that I submit to COTG - I'm flattered. I just submitted the post so you better publish it now - I don't handle rejection very well ;)
24-7talkback's all changed now. Its strange - a lot of the old people who were around when you were around are now dodgy heretics spreading the seeds of dissent.
I sometimes wonder if 24-7prayer are getting a little fed up with us. Apparently we have a bad reputation for making people loose their faith :S. We've been warned there are changes afoot for our little messageboard - here's hoping they don't stiffle the debates as they have been very fruitful!
Anyway, isn't it strange where people end up. Pete (remember him) no longer considers himself a Christian, Simon's left his charismatic congregation in favour of a middle-of-the-road Anglican, and I've become, what is it at the moment - a non-theistic, Christo-centric, liberal, universalist Quaker :S
Anyway, I'm off to explore this Carnival of the Godless phenomenon - is this your doing?
Ruthie
Hi Ruthie! I surfed here from Brent's site. I'm another (or should it be the other?) Phoenix atheist, but I have a lot of respect for Quakers - they are among the most ethical, compassionate (and, dare I say it, genuine) Christians I've ever met. I would definitely like to see you contribute to Carnival of the Godless. You may see some of my rantings and ravings there, but don't be put off - I live in the most "conservative" (i.e. raging Neanderthal fundamentalist) large city in the US, and it's fun (and sanity-preserving) to blow off steam now and then. BTW what part of Northern Ireland are you from? I have a lot of ancestors from Fermanagh.
Hi Goddam-Liberal :)
Nice handle and welcome!
I've submitted this post to Carnival of the Godless - I really like it. Maybe I'll muse around for a while and see what I can find! It will be a nice balance to the other stuff I read. I'm strange - I find as much enlightenment from some atheistic thinking as I do from some Quaker and Christian thinking and currently I'm immersing myself in Elie Weisel's writings so I'm drawing from Judaism too!
I think the best we can do is to draw from the best we find, from whatever perspective. There are crazies wherever you go I guess ;)
My dad lives in Fermanagh (Enniskillen) but I've never lived there. I was born in Belfast, my family lived in Newry (on the boarder between NI and the Republic) for a lot of years then moved back towards Belfast and went to school in Banbridge. Any of those places sound familiar to you?
Do you ever visit our fine wee cuntry of Norn Iron?
Ruthie
PS. Not all Quakers consider themselves Christians ;)
Do you ever visit our fine wee cuntry of Norn Iron?Aye, 'tis a grand wee place! I've been there a couple of times and had memories of barbed wire and machine gun nests everywhere, and waiting for hours at intimidating British Army checkpoints. Then I went back last year and was impressed with how open and normal everything seems. I drove north from Dundalk, and was almost in Newry before I realized I had crossed the border. I drove right along the coast, the Glens of Antrim, Giant's Causeway, Derry etc. It was a memorable trip. I didn't make it to Fermanagh, but that branch of the family doesn't live there now anyway - they were driven off their land in the 20's by an Orange mob, and forced across the border into Cavan. I've often wondered how there could be so much hatred and much suffering amid so much natural beauty. I'm glad to see the ceasefire seems to be holding - let's hope it's permanent!
I take your point about Quakers vs. Christians - mind you, the way St. Paul hijacked Christianity, maybe it should be called Paulism instead!
Take care, see you around!
24-7talkback's all changed now. Its strange - a lot of the old people who were around when you were around are now dodgy heretics spreading the seeds of dissent.
I sometimes wonder if 24-7prayer are getting a little fed up with us. Apparently we have a bad reputation for making people loose their faith :S. We've been warned there are changes afoot for our little messageboard - here's hoping they don't stiffle the debates as they have been very fruitful!Wow. That is so incredible. Frankly, I am surprised that the management haven't stepped in before now. I'd like to think that the powerful logic of my irrefutable arguments caused it all - hehehe - but even as long as I posted there, and all the messages that I left, are all still just a drop in the metaphorical bucket compared to all of the discussion and debate that has gone on in my absence. Maybe I was the yeast, but you folks were the beer. (I'm making beer today, so this analogy had to be included somewhere! Mmm... beer...)It just shows to go ya that even on a very liberal-minded Christian site like 24-7, that they will eventually crush all dissent. Religion in general cannot hold up under the blinding white light of skepticism and reason. Religion requires blind obedience - at least from the masses - or it fails. I would not be surprised in the slightest if they shut the debate & discuss board down completely, or made it a heavily-moderated board.
An interesting aside - my 17-year-old daughter followed your link in my comments section and read this post and tells me that she has been going through the 24-7 Talkback archives "non-stop" since yesterday. She also delights in calling me "Choy-dad". Heh. Kids. (grumble grumble...) :)
What a privelege to have the daughter of Choy Lee Mu reading my blog ;)
But lol - I wonder if my dad posted on internet forums what I'd make of his posts. I wonder what he'd say...:S
Nobody knows what will happen on talkback. An annoucement came out of nowhere saying that everything was going to change. There was an uproar and they said they would reconsider. I think the plan is to introduce moderators (who apparently won't be heavy handed) and keep debate and discuss).
Having said that, knowing the 24-7 prayer organisation as I do, I can't imagine anyone being organised enough to consistently moderate the forum. (Hopes the biggies don't stumble across my blog). Like most UK young Christian groups they're also chronically disorganised. The changes were meant to be implemented in October - so far, nothing but we're told 'they're coming'.
I just hope we don't become like most heavily moderated, can't hack a different opinion Christian boards that I'm come across. I'll be very disappointed if it does.
On the otherhand cotg certainly seems to have enough interesting stuff on there to satisfy my internet procrastination urges.
Ruthie
this is the first time i have seen the 24-7 forums, though i knew about the organisation. nice avatar, ruthie!
i have a lot of time for pete and the team - he came to our church in leeds once to speak with a fusion tour and 100 hours.
it's the only time i have ever seem anyone prepapre for a talk by lying prostrate in the foyer and banging their forhead on the floor, but it seemed to work. have you read his book called 'god on mute'? rob
Ah, the talkback forums are a phenomenon in themselves and at times quite distinct from 24-7prayer as an organisation.
Maybe you can join in and become a bloomin' addict like me ;)
I used to be very into 24-7prayer, organised several prayer rooms, went on a missions trip and met Pete Greig et al. They're good people. Indeed, I have read God on Mute, but it wasn't especially helpful for me. As the Quakers might say - it didn't speak to my condition :S
Ruthie
I used to be very into 24-7prayer, organised several prayer rooms, went on a missions trip and met Pete Greig et al.Hehe. I remember one time on 24-7 D&D, I was informed that I had a whole prayer room praying for 24 hours for my poor, blackened crisp of an atheist soul.
I turned to my wife and said, "There's a bunch of Christians in the UK praying for me right now. How cool is that?"
I'm still trying to figure out what the eye-roll code is... :)
Ha ha ha!
I just looked up the old forum and found the thread. It won't link directly to it, but if you go into the old forum and type 'praying for you Choy' into the search engine its the first thing that comes up.
Brilliant.
BTW, in case you're wondering, operation pray for Choy was not something I was involved in!
Ruthie
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